There is no Christ in Christian Zionism

April 2010 edits are this color.

This link was presented in a mailing list I'm on in September 2009:
What Would Jesus Say (to a Zio-Christian)?umkahlil.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-would-jesus-say-to-zio-christian.html

This was my response:

I want to echo this sentiment.

In addition to this sentiment and the ones expressed, I'd like to present a minority (IMO) belief among Christians in this country. I belong to a rather small, conservative group of Christians, but we take great pains to live by the Bible and in so doing we reject this majority opinion (Christian Zionism) plaguing the nation and infecting the political landscape- premillennialism/Christian Zionism.

The points in this article (What Would Jesus Say) were good about the Golden Rule and relationship between Muslims and Christians being misconstrued and things like this. I would like to add a few solid, but often overlooked, points in the argument against Christian Zionism.





 *(this one added 11/14/11, but arguably a critical issue) 
What I most want to know from Christian Zionists is what about Christian Palestinians? I mean, maybe it is easy to justify denying rights to Muslims for whatever reason, but what about those individuals with whom you probably would consider brothers and sisters in Christ? Should they suffer for the sake of your false doctrine because they will go to heaven anyway in the end? Or do you as Christians bear some responsibility to help them gain dignity, safety and basic rights in this life? I'm not even talking about going over and fighting or the US invading Israel, here. I'm just talking about tossing out Israeli propaganda, learning the facts from Palestinians (Palestinian Christians if you wish- though Muslims and Christians will have pretty similar stories of loss and oppression at the hands of Israelis) and changing US policy to support justice rather than just Israel.

*A theme that runs through this blind, dogmatic support for Israel is that the Jews are still God's chosen. This is a ridiculous notion for Christians as such would render worthless the foundation of our faith and salvation- the sacrifice on the cross of Jesus that turned the page on the old and looks to the new (Hebrews ch8-10). It boggles my mind. We would also be required to follow the old law for diet, travel, animal sacrifices, etc, btw, if Jews are God's chosen today. Also absurd for a Bible believing Christian.

*Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

*Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

*Gal 3:23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the
promise.
*They are eager to quote Old Testament verses about God proclaiming his love for Israelites and the fact of their chosenness, but they fail to tell you the rest of the story. The Israelites' chosenness was conditional (Deut 28). God laid out the consequences- scattering, wars, desolation, famine like nothing seen before. They in fact did violate the terms God set before them and did experience the consequences. You can see even in secular history the completion of the consequences with the Roman invasion an destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70AD. Jesus' illustration of the tree in Matthew 21 is pretty clear about Israel's futureas a nation. The Pharisees understood it.

* In saying that 1948 is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, you call God a liar:
Joshua 21:45Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

*About Israelites- I also find it hard to believe that the Israelites of the old testament are in fact today's Jews (another of their claims). 2000 years in the diaspora and no intermarriage?? And to think that people literally trying to return to a figurative location (see next point) after 2000 years have more of a claim to the land than Palestinians 30-60 years removed is just crazy and unfounded.

*The return after this destruction is in fact figurative- one of Christians- Jews and Gentiles both- the destination being heaven at the end of time, not the political state of Israel in 1948.


A Christian focus on a literal return to Jerusalem in 1948 or any other time after this destruction flies in the face of Jesus' declaration (we Christians believe- God inspired declaration) that the kingdom is not of this world- John 18:36.

The belief in premillennialism can be explained by the same idea that gives rise to militant Islam- people take the word of men instead of reading it for themselves or they read bits and pieces to find what suits them and stop there.

This link below has something written by a better writer than I and he includes Bible verses- for those interested. I've also got my own study, but thought this would be sufficient and more appropriate given the forum.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/28-god-and-the-nation-of-israel

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Perhaps I will post a few verses now that I'm not responding in that forum...

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Related post:
http://notanotherpoliticalblog-j.blogspot.com/2009/07/bible-prophecy-about-iran-electionsor.html

Bible prophecy about Iran elections...or not so much...

Someone posted a link and asked for comments. The link is below and my comments follow. I hope I don't come off as sarcastic or rude. (I'd like to save that for politics ;) ) Premillennialism is something I've tried to understand in the past. I really have not been able to connect the dots as to how people extract this belief from the Bible, given the context, meanings, and history. It is kind of a soapbox issue (like support for Israel and its crimes) because it is widely accepted, but I just can't figure out why.

Anyway, here goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67G0E0Uquyc

My comments:
In Galatians 3, the Bible calls the old law a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Our reading of these fulfilled prophecies gives us hope. The modern state of Israel is not mentioned in the Bible, contrary to popular belief. The Israelites were God's chosen. Jews today turn their back on Christ and God's sacrifice of his son. People often confuse today's Jews with Israelites. This is a really common false teaching, or group of false teachings, called premillennialism.

Ezra 1:1

The prophecy being fulfilled here is in Isaiah 44:28-45:1. Ezra1:1-4 says this prophecy is being fulfilled by Cyrus’s action, but you seem to apply this to Ahmedinejad in present-day Iran instead of Cyrus in Persia in comments like: “it’s ironic that the king of Persia is building God’s temple in Jerusalem (Ezra 1), but Ahmedinejad, leader of Iran today, is “trying to destroy everything that has to do with God’s temple in Jerusalem.”

I have a problem with his equating modern day Israel and modern Jews with ancient Israelites (God’s chosen people) and land (conditionally) promised (and received…and lost) to them at that time. It’s not historically accurate. Biblically speaking, it doesn’t matter one bit with regards to our salvation or Bible prophecy what goes on in Jerusalem (how ever interesting it may be).

You seem to differentiate between time periods, here, but I wasn’t clear on whether you thought Ezra was indeed a fulfillment (he didn’t say it at all) as we know it to be, or a prophecy to be fulfilled in the future (as you do later).

I thought the comment – ‘Jerusalem’s supposed to be their 3rd holiest site, but when they pray, they turn their back on it. Doesn’t sound holy to me.’ had no real place in the discussion of Bible prophecy. It was kind of catty, snide, and very much opinion.


Ezekiel 38

Ezekiel 38:11 speaks of unwalled villages. Israel today has tons of walls and fences, checkpoints, etc. Being attacked in a time of peace when defenses were decreased is spoken of in Ezekiel, but Israel is on high alert, is a very militarized society, and is filled with walls. This clearly doesn’t fit today’s situation or any since 1948 (and likely any after).

Most premillennialists say Israel was restored in 1948, but by saying this is a future prophecy it goes against even premillennial thought.

Ezekiel 39:29 “poured out My spirit” reminds me of Joel 2:28 which refers to that time when the gospel was beginning to be preached and people needed signs and before scripture was completed as referred to in 1 Corinthians 13:10. One could at the very least surmise that the fulfillment occurred before the scriptures were completely revealed. The Israelite captivity is also referred to in chapter 39, so I’m guessing it was fulfilled much earlier than the time the scriptures were completely revealed?

If the northern lands are indeed today’s countries as you say, then they will be fighting with horses, swords and shields (?) and not planes, bombs and other equipment long removed from swords. That begs some explanation if we are to continue to assume this will happen in the “future” from today’s vantage point.

He says Moscow and Iran are leading a world war against Israel. Really, Moscow is becoming dependent on the West more and more and consequently is pressured to have good relations with Israel which will probably actually hurt their relations with Iran, so I would say their bond or association is not so tight as you say.

He also says about the Ezekiel passage “recovered from war” that Israel has had a few wars. I’d say yes, but they are in a constant state of war and are nowhere near “recovered” from it, so this doesn’t fit here either. He says we are already seeing verse 14 in that Iran won’t accept Israel’s right to exist, but I say we can’t be seeing it (even if you ignore the fact that this has been fulfilled) since Israel’s at “war”, not recovered.

　

Dan 10 “time yet to come” He says that means it hasn’t happened yet. In reality, at the time of the writing, it was yet to come. It is important to think about when it was written, to whom, by whom, context, when considering a passage.

It is essential to read Daniel 10-12 to get the prophecy here. The Persian, Greek, and in 11, the north and south (Syrian and Egyptian) kingdoms are discussed. History shows that these things did indeed happen.

Going back to your assertion, how do we know this is meant for us at this point in history, rather than events that have transpired already for which there is documentation? This is something I have always wanted to know from premillennialists. Why is it impossible that it happened thousands of years ago and by the time we read it, it has been fulfilled?

When prophecies were written, they were written about specific people and events, but folks like to insert current events all too often. It is astounding that things were prophesied 400 years before they occurred. We don’t need to put current events in there to reinject the “magic”. It is amazing and tells us God is faithful and takes care of those that obey him- for instance when we see Jesus and his life and message, the Israelites’ captivity prophesied or their return and each of them fulfilled.


V20- angel says soon I will fight against the king of Persia
and
Revelation 22:7 , 12 coming soon

Students of Revelation will realize that when the Bible says “soon” it means soon, not 2000 or more years later. For example, Revelation was written to Christians undergoing persecution we can barely comprehend. This letter was their comfort and many saw the comfort in their lifetime, otherwise what good would it have been? Soon, I’d gather, would be more like a generation than a millennia or two.

We are not given signs or even a timeframe (i.e soon) for his return:
Matt 24:36, 42-44

Question and 'professor fired for speaking out'

Question to anyone who wants to answer: Is having a professor removed or denied tenure (Kovel, Finkelstein) for criticizing Israel at all similar to firing a person for analyzing and/or condemning governments of other countries (i.e. France, China, Iran, Cuba for human rights, communism, lack of freedom of speech, etc.)- or is it apples and oranges or is one more acceptable or crazy to you than the other?

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Generally, Americans get up in arms about crackdowns on freedom of speech. This is one of the things that makes our country. It's why many come here from other countries to live.

When someone gets fired for criticizing Israel, the crowds clear out, people look the other way. No one wants to be called anti-Semitic for defending (even factually correct) criticism of Israel.

Let me just say it-
CRITICISM OF ISRAEL IS NOT ANTI-SEMITISM!
HATRED OF JEWS (or technically Semites, which would include Arabs, ironically) IS ANTI-SEMITISM!

Here is Joel Kovel's statement after being fired from Bard:
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/02/19/joel-kovel-accuses-bard-of-firing-him-for-his-anti-zionist-scholarship/

Here's a piece that goes into the criticism = anti-Semitism bit:
http://www.counterpunch.org/landau03132009.html

The end of this article made me chuckle:

“Long Live Israel,” scream the US fans. “Anyone who doesn’t like our team is an anti-Semite.” I want to shout: “Go Back to Israel where you didn’t come from.”

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This also got me thinking about those wrongly accused (Sami Al-Arian) and how easy it is for people to accuse and how hard it is to prove innocence and get your reputation back.

http://harpers.org/archive/2009/03/hbc-90004539

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1116-07.htm